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Need video clarification please

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    #16
    Re: Need video clarification please

    Ed,

    Actually...nevermind. I don't want to know where you get your pictures from.
    Vudu Forum Moderator

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Need video clarification please

      Originally posted by JohnA View Post
      Yeah, I'm down in Santa Clara. One of our reps Jimmy actually lived in Sacramento for a while.

      Ah, the Delta. I remember attempting to water skii out there back when I was 10 years old with a buddy and his family. That didn't end well.

      No worries mate, we'll just give you a rubber duckie, a flare gun, and drag you with a large inner-tube!!


      Brain, you're just......SICK!!! You're the greatest (but it was supposed to be a surprise)!!

      Thanks everyone.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Need video clarification please

        Thanks John

        Bob

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Need video clarification please

          Originally posted by HeadHodge View Post
          I'm still to this day still confused about the concept of a compression codec that is not lossless.
          Well, this is the reason why you have things like color banding on dark scenes. It's really due to the lossy aspect of the compression routine.

          I did a stint in Japan one summer working for KDD which is the telephone company in Japan that handles international telephone calls. The technology I worked on was color image compression techniques for transmission over a packet switched network. Little did I know how important this sort of thing would become. I was a college student at the time. I also knew absolutely ZILCH about digital image compression. So it was an 8 week baptism by fire. But I did know Pascal and that was good enough! It was fun. They had me experimenting with different techniques to try to basically improve the compression efficiency so you could end up with a smaller file and hence improve transmission time.

          The techniques I experimented with basically consisted of making the compression routine more lossy. We worked by taking a pixel and comparing the pixels around it. If they were the same value w/in a certain percentage, then the pixels around it were eligible to be eliminated from the final file. Then you'd move to the next pixel and examine the pixels around it. You'd pretty much recursively analyze every pixel in the image and then based on the ones that could be eliminated you'd drop them and create the final file that also contained a map of what pixels needed to be added back in and their values. I played around with skipping pixels. If a pixel had a value of say 50 and the pixel two over also was at 50, the odds are that the pixel in between was 50 as well and so you could skip a pixel, etc. I also played with changing the percentages to determine when to lose a pixel or when not to.

          Wow. I just realized that come July that will have been 20 years ago!

          Who knows if my work led to any breakthroughs for image compression for the internet. I'd like to think it did! The system the guys in Japan had in mind was more for a next generation video facsimile transmission over a packet switched network. What was really interesting what that when the netscape browser first came out, the image loading algorithm was very similar to what they developed at KDD. The image would gradually fill in pixels as you watched. The other funny thing is that the guys at KDD called this technology "telematics." Today, the term telematics is used for automotive applications like OnStar (one of my customers makes the OnStar system).

          So there's my regression down memory lane...

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Need video clarification please

            Originally posted by NA9D View Post
            The techniques I experimented with basically consisted of making the compression routine more lossy.

            So there's my regression down memory lane...
            Thanks for that. I like sitting on the rocking chair around the fire place, bouncing grand kids and telling them stories of the good ole days. But they mostly just look at me and fall asleep or ask for candy.

            I almost wish I wasn't retired, because I'm really intriqued by this compression stuff. If you read my sad story in a previous post, I couldn't create an algorithm that would solve my route problem in under 2 minutes. But then I found one that I adapted to my needs and got it down to under 5 seconds.

            So the point I'm trying to make is that I don't really think that the ultimate compression algorithm has been created yet. So I hold out for hope in that area.

            But I also got to thinking that every thing I've read so far about compression has been based around pixel differential in the immediate area. I'm thinking that if the compression was based on a frame basis it could be much more effecient. For example if you took a base frame with different shades of black in it and compared to 5 subsequent frames that are essentially the same frame as the base, you could totally eliminate at least 4 total frames without loss.

            Then if you took a base frame with action, you could supply the data only needed to make the action change from frame to frame.

            I could go on and on now that I'm thinking about it, but hopefully you get the idea.

            No matter what it's definitely fun thinking about it!!

            Regards

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Need video clarification please

              Originally posted by HeadHodge View Post
              But I also got to thinking that every thing I've read so far about compression has been based around pixel differential in the immediate area. I'm thinking that if the compression was based on a frame basis it could be much more effecient. For example if you took a base frame with different shades of black in it and compared to 5 subsequent frames that are essentially the same frame as the base, you could totally eliminate at least 4 total frames without loss.

              Then if you took a base frame with action, you could supply the data only needed to make the action change from frame to frame.
              I think this is being done and is kinda the concept behind the "I-Frame." The I-Frame is basically a crucial frame that can't be dropped. On Vudu if you backup while paused, you go back based on i-Frames - it's typically 5 seconds or so. But this iFrame varies with the video content and I believe you maybe stick an i-Frame every 5 or 10 frames. Frames around it can be dropped or something like that.

              I've thought about this same concept as well. You could basically create a map of subsquent frames and eliminate those that fall w/in a certain percentage.

              I don't know so much about video compression as all I worked with were stills, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was being done.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Need video clarification please

                Originally posted by JohnA View Post
                Our standard definition content is 480p/60 native and our HD is 1080p/24 native.
                So the SD content isn't 480P24? I thought when I asked that questiona few months ago I was told it was 480P24 and 1080P24 for the content.
                Either way it's better than DVD which is only 480i.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Need video clarification please

                  Originally posted by NA9D View Post
                  I don't know so much about video compression as all I worked with were stills, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was being done.
                  But like I said I really don't think the ultimate compression ratio has been created yet. So I potentially see big money in your future if you can put some effort into it. Consider it my fortune cookie from me to you.

                  Just keep history as your perspective. Look what has been done over the years with only copper twisted pair for inspiration.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Need video clarification please

                    Originally posted by aaronwt View Post
                    So the SD content isn't 480P24? I thought when I asked that questiona few months ago I was told it was 480P24 and 1080P24 for the content.
                    Either way it's better than DVD which is only 480i.
                    Here it is
                    Originally posted by VolkerS View Post
                    SD native format is 480p/24

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Need video clarification please

                      Originally posted by HeadHodge View Post
                      But like I said I really don't think the ultimate compression ratio has been created yet. So I potentially see big money in your future if you can put some effort into it. Consider it my fortune cookie from me to you.

                      Just keep history as your perspective. Look what has been done over the years with only copper twisted pair for inspiration.
                      Uncompressed 1080i content would be around 1.25Gbs. 1080P would be even higher. That's alot of data for just one minute. For a couple of hours that would be gigantic.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Need video clarification please

                        Originally posted by aaronwt View Post
                        Uncompressed 1080i content would be around 1.25Gbs. 1080P would be even higher. That's alot of data for just one minute. For a couple of hours that would be gigantic.
                        Your right, but that's all I keep hearing from everybody. They either quote uncompressed sizes or compressed sizes with the currently accepted compression routine. But nobody will talk about or mathmatically prove what is possible or impossible with an as yet newly created compression routine.

                        Fractal math seemed to have promises, but then seemed to have faded away.

                        I can get up to 6Mb DSL speeds over simple copper. Who would have thought that possible (what) 5 or 10 years ago??

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Need video clarification please

                          Originally posted by HeadHodge View Post
                          I can get up to 6Mb DSL speeds over simple copper. Who would have thought that possible (what) 5 or 10 years ago??
                          Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the Kermit protocol could do the job better than MPEG4!!

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Need video clarification please

                            Originally posted by HeadHodge View Post
                            Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the Kermit protocol could do the job better than MPEG4!!
                            Kermit protocol. OMG, now you are really taking me down memory lane. Back to the days of when getting on line meant logging into FidoNet.

                            And the the Net came along. You didn't need firewalls. You could finger people and they'd like it. There weren't cookies or phish. Just the net and happy campers on newsgroups.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Need video clarification please

                              Originally posted by NA9D View Post
                              Kermit protocol. OMG, now you are really taking me down memory lane. Back to the days of when getting on line meant logging into FidoNet.
                              Arf.. Arf...

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Need video clarification please

                                There are always going to be better compression algorithms but typically with a consumer format, you can only choose what's available at a a certain time and keep using that compression format.
                                Like OTA HD. It's stuck using MPEG2 here in the US because that is what they chose many years ago.

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