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The Fandango at Home Forums are designed to help viewers get the most out of their Fandango at Home experience. Here, Fandango at Home customers may post information, questions, ideas, etc. on the subject of Fandango at Home and Fandango at Home -related issues (home theater, entertainment, etc). Although the primary purpose of these forums is to help Fandango at Home customers with questions and/or problems with their Fandango at Home service, there are also off-topic areas available within the Fandango at Home Forums for users to chat with like-minded people, subject to the limitations below.

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Missing key ingredients

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    Missing key ingredients

    Cliff Notes:

    Set top box industry hasn?t had a success since Tivo.
    People want internet content on their TV.
    Hardware lacking wifi, IR remote support, HDMI 1.3 and RS-232.
    High market entrance cost @ $399
    You don?t own the content, only paying to access it (just like itunes but you cant back it up like you can on itunes)

    Let me give some background on myself. I have worked in the consumer electronics industry since 1999. I have seen many products trying to get into the homes across the US promising the next greatest thing.
    Here are a few of my observations after reading the wsj, nytimes, gizmodo, crave, engadget, cnet (news.com), and forbes articles.

    I saw movie beam try and fail miserable cause they just didnt have any good new movies to try. That is one of my problems when I tried vongo. Their selection just is not there.
    http://3e-lab.com/blog/04/10/biz/von...ervice-review/

    Now movie selection is not the key ingredient for set top box sales. Look at the apple tv that plays back free podcasts, youtube movies plus has the ability to buy movies/shows on the itunes store. They won't let out their sales numbers but it isn't exactly catching on like Tivo did in early 2000.

    How is Vudu going to get into homes with just offering movie content? With the huge popularity of youtube; doesnt that show that people want to watch more than just movies at home now? Plus movies coming from the studios suck anyway for the most part. There are some really random videos with +1 million views.

    What about Wifi?
    From what I have read vudu is a hardwired device only. So the customer has to hard wire a network cable or add a wireless access point at the set top box. Not consumer friendly like the Apple TV and other boxes. Why wasn't wifi integrated directly?

    No infrared remote support? WOW!
    Take a step back and think about how many devices the average home has in one room. It has at least a TV, cable/sat box, and a dvd player. Three remotes now another is needed.
    The saving grace for the average person that likes a simple life is a universal remote. All universal remotes can only talk in base IR code. They don't have the ability to talk in RF. They might talk from the remote to the base station at the equipment in RF but it is being converted from IR to RF then to IR.
    The problem is that all the wealthy customers that have dedicated theaters can't use this device with their universal remote. They now need two remotes.
    There is a niche category of the market for electronic devices. It is the custom install category. The great thing about custom shops is that they just tell the customer what they need and sell them the product. More times than not the customer has no idea of what products they just wrote a $400,000 check for but as long as it works they don't care.
    Vudu doesn't play nice in the custom arena since it is only RF, doesnt have RS-232 support, and no HDMI 1.3 support.

    According to the Vudu FAQ on billing:
    "There are no monthly fees. You pay for content as you go. Our billing functions in the following way: When setting up your account, you provide a credit card and choose an amount ($20, $50, or $100 with $20 being the default amount) to charge the card and create a positive balance in the account. As you rent or purchase movies, the per-movie viewing charges will be debited from your VUDU account. When your account depletes to $0.00, the pre-selected amount is charged to your credit card and the account is replenished."

    I really hope you can do all the billing through the TV interface. It would really suck have if it needed the person to login to Vudu to setup and put money on the Vudu account.

    What is needed:
    A do everything box. Combine DVR, slingbox, computer, plus the new Vudu service and now you have something worth talking about. Oh, have it only cost $99 bux because if you really want this product to spread the average customer isn't going to fork out more money for something that isn't a standard and they know will change by next year.
    I don't doubt that the product quality is worth $399 but that is a high market entrance point when the person still has to buy the movies to rent.

    With almost all movies costing $9.99-$14.99 the person can buy 25-40 DVDs and actually own them. That brings me to the other problem. If I get a Vudu and I buy movies. I don't actually have a physical copy, I am just paying for the right to access the movie at anytime. If the Vudu service goes belly up then I don't have access and all my movies are gone! Plus at least with iTunes I can back up the music I bought.

    Movie studios still care about physical media sales. Vudu is second in line to get new releases. So you will need to wait to watch the new movie even though you could walk into a blockbuster or bestbuy and pick up the movie.

    According to the journal there are 41 employees working at Vudu. Why don't more of them get in this forum and interact with us?


    Wow, this turned into a much longer article than I thought. I am curious to hear some thoughts.

    #2
    Re: Missing key ingredients

    Where do I start. My biggest point of agreement with you is the non-IR remote. I have complained about and I know others have as well. All I can say is that I believe our concerns have been heard. Time will only tell if support of IR is one day available.

    In terms of why they chose RF over IR, the thought was that you can pass a lot more remote commands more quickly and reliably over RF than IR. It does bite that I can't use my Harmony 880 with the product and am stuck using Vudu's. It's a good and comfortable remote and works well, but it's another remote...

    In terms of movies vs. YouTube - come on. Far more people view movies. Your tube caters to a younger crowd but not many people are watching YouTube in their living rooms. I just watched a couple clips this afternoon on my AppleTV. The quality on my 50" plasma bites. Vudu's quality is outstanding.

    To me the biggest issue that needs to be solved are portability of content. Certainly, the box has the capability to serve shows or allow downloads to the computer with the right software. But the restrictions are more a result of the will of the studios than the folks at Vudu. The studios are where the real problem lies as they try to kill every new technology that comes out. It's been shown throughout history and they have been wrong every time.

    I'm not sure but I would think Vudu would be trying to negotiate TV content deals. If I could get all my favorite shows on Demand over the Vudu, I just might cancel my cable!

    The account works quite well. You order movies right from the set top box. Your account setup is done via browser, but once you set it up to charge your card $20, $50 or $100 a pop, everything after that is automatic. When you order a movie, your account is debited the amount of the purchase/rental. When you reach zero, the credit card is charged again in the amount you set it up to do.

    The high price of the box could be a deterrent. I hope in a year or two, the price will be about half and that hopefully there are new features...I can't comment on their plans, but I know that they have some ideas to make the product better.

    Jon

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Missing key ingredients

      First I would say great post. I am not an employee of VUDU but I have been using the VUDU for a while now.

      I like the idea of doing all the activation via the VUDU but it could be really time consuming with having to scroll back and forth though the letters and numbers.

      Internet content is another issue. How do you control quality if you are streaming YouTube content to a HD TV? The quality would be unpredictable. I wouldn't consider at this time the VUDU is a media center from the internet but what it does best is play quality movie content.

      Since your TV already has a remote and will be connected via HDMI to your digital devices why do you need another connection? It can all be done by your TV's IR receiver sending commands to that device. Its called HDMI-CEC. I know it has the support of the major TV vendors and a lot of pro installers are looking forward to it to get around IR timing issues. I can't speak for the VUDU company but I am waiting for this type of solution myself.

      Now WIFI is another story. They are so many issues surrounding the current crop of WIFI devices and the cost of vendors to support them is out of this world. I am a strong proponent of the AOSS or one touch setup but there is too many variations of security and chipset features to make this ubiquitous. I am a regular on a lot of boards dealing with home wireless routers and there just some issues that can't seem to get resolved in this area. And try explaining that to a consumer.

      Once you purchase for viewing they are yours forever. Even if VUDU goes out of business the movie will be on your VUDU box for watching. I am also looking forward for the VUDU to support an external HD that would be used to backup / store owned movies.

      On the issue of going down to the video store to get a movie vs. getting it on the VUDU. You don't have to go the store. You don't have to return it. You don't have to wait for Netflix to deliver it. Its just there waiting for you to rent it from the internet. Instant gratification without any work.

      I wouldn't consider prepayment a membership fee. Its just like prepaid cellular and tollway passes (IPass, EZPASS). You fill up your account to the level you want and then as you watch movies the account get debited. When you run out of money on the account it refills to your pre-approved level.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Missing key ingredients

        Originally posted by RonV View Post

        It can all be done by your TV's IR receiver sending commands to that device.
        On big systems the HDMI goes through a switcher which is usually a receiever. Not directly to the TV. Plus any TV that was made before th 2007 model year probably only had 1-2 HDMI inputs.

        Originally posted by RonV View Post
        Once you purchase for viewing they are yours forever.
        That is my point. You are entitled to them via Vudu. If Vudu is no more then you have nothing unless they are backed up. Yours forever isn't exactly the right term.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Missing key ingredients

          Originally posted by NA9D View Post
          In terms of movies vs. YouTube - come on. Far more people view movies.
          More people view movies? A lame video like this
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc
          on youtube doesn't get 7+ million hits within two weeks because people are at home watching moviews when they get home from work.


          [quote=NA9D;10177]The studios are where the real problem lies as they try to kill every new. [quote]

          100% agree with you. I have no doubt in my mind Vudu has their hands tied and they want to give consumers more but the studios are making them hold back.
          Originally posted by NA9D View Post
          I'm not sure but I would think Vudu would be trying to negotiate TV content deals. If I could get all my favorite shows on Demand over the Vudu, I just might cancel my cable!
          Bingo!

          Originally posted by NA9D View Post
          The account works quite well. You order movies right from the set top box. Your account setup is done via browser, but once you set it up to charge your card $20, $50 or $100 a pop, everything after that is automatic. When you order a movie, your account is debited the amount of the purchase/rental. When you reach zero, the credit card is charged again in the amount you set it up to do.
          Nice to hear since I think that is a huge point to keep the existing customers happy.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Missing key ingredients

            Originally posted by Rob Dizzle View Post
            That is my point. You are entitled to them via Vudu. If Vudu is no more then you have nothing unless they are backed up. Yours forever isn't exactly the right term.
            Purchased movies are stored in their entirety on the hard drive, so it has nothing to do with VUDU staying in business. But a very valid concern, many of these are issues that concerned us, too. Personally, I don't see this replacing DVDs for me, I see it replacing rentals, but that's just because of my viewing habits.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Missing key ingredients

              Rob,

              If you buy a movie on the Vudu, it sits on the hard drive there in its entirety. You have it for good. If Vudu goes under (heaven forbid), you will still be able to play and watch any purchased content. It's not going to be something you lose if the box cannot connect to the "mother ship" every so often. It will NOT be like an Akimbo. The only thing that would ruin it is if the hard drive were to go kaput. Then you would lose the content.

              You can take the box with you and use it elsewhere. So you could literally take it from home, stick it in your car (it just needs 12V) and play it in the entertainment system in your car.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Missing key ingredients

                I've been looking for this answer, but haven't found yet, so forgive if it's in here somewhere..:-)

                If the hard drive crashes on the unit, will you be able to re-download the movies you already purchased at no cost? If the answer is no, then I would wait to buy this when the USB back-up hard drive accessory is available. If the answer is yes then I am onboard now.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Missing key ingredients

                  Yes if your VUDU is defective and replaced all purchased content will be put back on the VUDU hard drive. How the processes will work such as download vs. the VUDU folks shipping a new unit with the content installed is up to the VUDU folks...

                  Originally posted by metallus2000 View Post
                  I've been looking for this answer, but haven't found yet, so forgive if it's in here somewhere..:-)

                  If the hard drive crashes on the unit, will you be able to re-download the movies you already purchased at no cost? If the answer is no, then I would wait to buy this when the USB back-up hard drive accessory is available. If the answer is yes then I am onboard now.
                  Last edited by RonV; 09-20-2007, 05:34 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Missing key ingredients

                    Ok that was key for me...thanks!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Missing key ingredients

                      I don't think Vudu will fly. Of course like most of things in this world, there is no absolute right or wrong. I just think the chance is small for Vudu to out win actual DVD rental service like Netflix or DVD play. It's still not promising for Vudu to have enough users and to survive long enough to become self -sustainable.
                      If we just compare actual DVD copy and digital video copy, there are pro and con for each selection.

                      Rental:

                      digital copy can be obtain instantly without waiting, without leaving house. (PRO)
                      digital copy needs a special machine to enable the access. ($399 Vudu box in this case) (CON)
                      Rental fee and terms is a undecided factor. Whoever provide lower rental fee wins this factor. Rental cost can be decided by cost of infrastructure and the size of business..


                      Different people has different priorities in their mind. For vudu to survive, you need enough user think pro overweight con and actual use Vudu service.

                      Let's just say both parties has similar rental fees.
                      I say most of American do have some patient, they can plan things in advance in order to save money.


                      to be continue...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Missing key ingredients

                        Will there be enough people think instant access to rental movie justifies the extra $399 initial fee? (wait a minute, you still need to wait for the machine to arrive, How come we can't download the whole machine?)

                        Well, we can talk about it, making guesses, yet the real numbers should tell us how well this goes. I mean, Vudu started selling since 1st/Oct, and there were pre-order units.

                        Before Vudu release any number, Let me make a guess here: It's not going to be pretty, maybe not even a 3-digits number of units sold for the first month.

                        Of course I can be wrong. Even Vudu does have a ****ty first month, that's doesn't mean it can't turn around. I just don't think the like hood is good.

                        Should we go into the comparison of buying a digital copy verse a real copy? Well, I like to see some response for this first part first.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Missing key ingredients

                          Originally posted by timchen View Post
                          Before Vudu release any number, Let me make a guess here: It's not going to be pretty, maybe not even a 3-digits number of units sold for the first month.
                          I'm waiting for my 3rd box as we speak. As soon as I get that up and running and see how my network is holding up, I will order my 4th and probably final box. I never thought that I might represent that measurable of a percentage of their first months sales (if they sell less than 100). It will be interesting to see how it goes.

                          I gave one of them to my dad, who is 83 and he loves it. He doesn't use Netflix or go to Blockbuster because he finds them too inconvenient. He watches what he can find on his Tivo so he is really ready for a download only solution. I have to believe that there are many people out there who would appreciate this technology and be willing to pay the up front fee (with no subsequent membership fees). Time will tell.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Missing key ingredients

                            Originally posted by timchen View Post
                            Well, we can talk about it, making guesses, yet the real numbers should tell us how well this goes. I mean, Vudu started selling since 1st/Oct, and there were pre-order units.

                            Before Vudu release any number, Let me make a guess here: It's not going to be pretty, maybe not even a 3-digits number of units sold for the first month.
                            Oh that's funny. You're joking right? You think Vudu is going to sell less than 100 units this month? While it might not be thousands it will certainly be over 100. We have at least 4 or 5 people on the forums who have purchased boxes recently and forum users are a small fraction of the actual user population.

                            Also, Vudu won't be releasing numbers. It's a private company. And no, I don't know what the numbers are either.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Missing key ingredients

                              I didn't know Vudu just lower its price to $299 just 2 weeks after its launch. That's isn't a good sign, at least it tells us it wasn't priced right to start with and it didn't sell enough units as they wished.
                              Now $299 will boost some sales that's for sure. Yet for the long run, $299 is still too high. To compete with real DVD rental, idea price should be close to a nice DVD player ($150-$200)

                              Comment

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