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The Fandango at Home Forums are designed to help viewers get the most out of their Fandango at Home experience. Here, Fandango at Home customers may post information, questions, ideas, etc. on the subject of Fandango at Home and Fandango at Home -related issues (home theater, entertainment, etc). Although the primary purpose of these forums is to help Fandango at Home customers with questions and/or problems with their Fandango at Home service, there are also off-topic areas available within the Fandango at Home Forums for users to chat with like-minded people, subject to the limitations below.

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4K Streaming

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    #1

    4K Streaming

    So I'm mentioned this one before and I'm going to throw it out there again and expand on it.


    Vudu REALLY needs to make sure they have their 4K ducks lined up and in a row ! ! !


    I LOVE 3D, but overall it hasn't been the boom TV makers thought it would be. Even in theaters it's starting to loose traction.

    4K on the other end is on FIRE. Sure the $5-20k 4K TV's gained a lot of press but didn't really do much for the mainstream. Now that we have these sub $2k and even sub $1 bare bones 4K TV's the market is starting to pick up drastically. Sure (most) don't have 3D, lack latest (pending?) HDMI standard, lack high refresh ... but they've gained a lot of interest and sales. The market is also turning much faster. People typically replaced their TV's every 8 years. Now, it's happening MUCH, MUCH quicker.

    CES 2014 also revealed a flood of low end 4K at dirt cheap prices. The big boys are going to have to start playing or we're going to end up with what happened in the car marketing with Hyundai and especially Kia coming in and not only taking a good chunk of the low end but pushing into high-end at much lower prices and cutting into lower end German and Japanese luxury sales.

    Sure there's not much content. That's the POINT. The displays and filling into the marketplace and consumers are going to want 4K content to go with their displays. There are a lot of new 4K coming out with ROKU inside. I doubt those ROKU will support native 4K but it's a start. Netflix is also stating they will have 4K content this year. Vude needs to MAKE SURE they have 4K content and streaming ability (read server space, bandwidth, etc) ready to roll or they are going to get crushed. Sony already has 4K streaming, but "currently" very limited titles and tied to their TV's "at the moment". Like's RED has something "similar" up and running, again limited. Blu-Ray will have a 4K standard at the end of the year. But it's probably going to be easier and cheaper, and more accept by consumers to buy a new streamer than a new blu-ray player.

    The POINT is that Vudu potentially will have a lot of competition and once the content is ready to go their is going to be a fair amount of 4K displays already installed. Vudu has made some notable advancement into the streaming market but if they don't have 4K lined up and ready to rock and roll they could loose it all QUICK.

    I'm here to support them moving forward.

    GO TEAM VUDU ! ! !
    Tags: None
    #2
    Re: 4K Streaming

    I'm all for it but I have to wonder if internet speeds will be the bigger issue. We'll see how netflix fares.

    Comment

      #3
      Re: 4K Streaming

      1080p streaming alone already eats up huge chunks of bandwidth. I can only imagine what will be required once 4K rolls out.

      They need to really work on the compression algorithms for 4K. At that high of a resolution, any ghosting or artifacts left over from the encoding/compression will be blindingly obvious.

      Affordable sets is only the first part of the 4K equation. For streaming to work, it has to be high quality and low bandwidth. Considering the challenges even 1080p has on this, I don't know if we'll see 4K streaming take off for some time.

      Comment

        #4
        Re: 4K Streaming

        Originally posted by BlakkMajik3000 View Post
        1080p streaming alone already eats up huge chunks of bandwidth. I can only imagine what will be required once 4K rolls out.

        They need to really work on the compression algorithms for 4K. At that high of a resolution, any ghosting or artifacts left over from the encoding/compression will be blindingly obvious.

        Affordable sets is only the first part of the 4K equation. For streaming to work, it has to be high quality and low bandwidth. Considering the challenges even 1080p has on this, I don't know if we'll see 4K streaming take off for some time.
        True. 4K is going to take more bandwidth. More than most households currently have. Netflix addressed this concern recently. Part of it that this is stiller (very) adapter territory and those people pretty much have it covered; also speeds are going up and larger percent of people are going up; also there ARE new compression algorithms that are (currently) not being used that would allow 4K to be transmitted with not (drastically much) more bandwidth than current high quality 1080P streams.

        I would expect 2014 to be the real launch of 4K from a variety of sources and 2015 would be the first real year of any serious adaptation of consumers. Major use is yes, going to be a few, not many years off.

        Netflix has commented they will be using h.265 HEVC compression and running two 4k streams at about 11Mbps and 15Mbps. This is not much more than the 9Mbps (or so) typically recommended by Vudu. Chances are if you can support 9Mbps with your current connection you'll likely also support 11-15Mbps.

        Most of the recently announced TV's with embedded Netflix will support Netflix 4k (almost) immediately. Roku, Blu-Ray, etc will likely need to wait until latest HDMI standard is finalized and rolled out.

        Sadley the menu / UI is going to be 720P (or so) for now.

        Comment

          #5
          Re: 4K Streaming

          Originally posted by jeremymc7 View Post
          True. 4K is going to take more bandwidth. More than most households currently have. Netflix addressed this concern recently. Part of it that this is stiller (very) adapter territory and those people pretty much have it covered; also speeds are going up and larger percent of people are going up; also there ARE new compression algorithms that are (currently) not being used that would allow 4K to be transmitted with not (drastically much) more bandwidth than current high quality 1080P streams.

          I would expect 2014 to be the real launch of 4K from a variety of sources and 2015 would be the first real year of any serious adaptation of consumers. Major use is yes, going to be a few, not many years off.

          Netflix has commented they will be using h.265 HEVC compression and running two 4k streams at about 11Mbps and 15Mbps. This is not much more than the 9Mbps (or so) typically recommended by Vudu. Chances are if you can support 9Mbps with your current connection you'll likely also support 11-15Mbps.

          Most of the recently announced TV's with embedded Netflix will support Netflix 4k (almost) immediately. Roku, Blu-Ray, etc will likely need to wait until latest HDMI standard is finalized and rolled out.

          Sadley the menu / UI is going to be 720P (or so) for now.
          I don't think speed is so much the problem, as the data caps. As someone that used to use less than 100GB/mo, I find the 300GB limit I currently have starting to feel a bit restrictive. I actually went over my data cap during the previous billing cycle (holidays), and that is the first time I've ever done that since I've been on broadband (2 years DSL/9 years cable). Until the companies raise the caps, streaming video in general is going to start feeling the pinch.

          As usual, technology is being held back by old suits that don't know or want to change their business model to fit modern times.

          As you mentioned, I do think the early adopters would definitely be on board and have already upgraded to the next generation in TV. I think in terms of actual television sets, there will definitely be a surge of purchases thanks to more affordable models. I just wonder how much the average consumer is willing to dedicate bandwidth-wise for those extra pixels.

          Vudu has the best 1080p quality out there, so I would imagine they'd be, or at least want to be, at the forefront of 4K. We'll see if the market demands it enough.

          I personally have high hopes for 4K. The whole 3D thing just seemed like a gimmick to me, but the resolution bump of 4K is actually something I look forward to.

          Comment

            #6
            Re: 4K Streaming

            As an owner of a scope-based setup, I can see 4k as viable because my screen size makes sense getting into it.........but when you have a 55" 4K TV there is no benefit because you have to sit closer to the screen to see the difference......IMO this is all hype just like 3D was, another way for the manufacturers to make profits.........the mainstream TV watcher is not going to upgrade to ANOTHER TV, they have better things to think about, like, er, the economy.......This is in the early adoption phase, and I think it will be a niche technology for those with the screen size to support it......

            Comment

              #7
              Re: 4K Streaming

              Originally posted by canadien37 View Post
              As an owner of a scope-based setup, I can see 4k as viable because my screen size makes sense getting into it.........but when you have a 55" 4K TV there is no benefit because you have to sit closer to the screen to see the difference......IMO this is all hype just like 3D was, another way for the manufacturers to make profits.........the mainstream TV watcher is not going to upgrade to ANOTHER TV, they have better things to think about, like, er, the economy.......This is in the early adoption phase, and I think it will be a niche technology for those with the screen size to support it......
              You bring up an interesting point, and it's one that I've read time and time again. The basic idea is that the reason the OEMs are focusing on the huge displays is because, at normal viewing distances, the average person cannot discern 1080p from 4K. If you want to see the difference using a "mainstream" (i.e. 60" and below) size set, you have to sit much closer than you normally would.

              This would also explain why 4K setups are a big thing in PC gaming, where you are often quite close to the monitor.

              Comment

                #8
                Re: 4K Streaming

                Originally posted by BlakkMajik3000 View Post
                You bring up an interesting point, and it's one that I've read time and time again. The basic idea is that the reason the OEMs are focusing on the huge displays is because, at normal viewing distances, the average person cannot discern 1080p from 4K. If you want to see the difference using a "mainstream" (i.e. 60" and below) size set, you have to sit much closer than you normally would.
                Not only that, but 1080p content usually looks *worse* scaled up to a 4k TV (just as SD content looks worse on an HD TV than an SD TV). Personally I'm going to hold off on getting a 4k TV until someone can show me one that looks (almost) as good on 1080p content as my Panasonic plasma

                This is the tech I'm looking forward to in future TVs!

                http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...w-hdr-tv-tech/

                The consensus from people I talked to who were at CES is that HDR color make a bigger difference in picture quality than 4k for most of the demos they saw (especially on "normal" size TVs at average viewing distances).

                [ note these are my opinions and have nothing to do with what VUDU may be working on in the future ]

                Comment

                  #9
                  Re: 4K Streaming

                  Originally posted by Jake View Post
                  Not only that, but 1080p content usually looks *worse* scaled up to a 4k TV (just as SD content looks worse on an HD TV than an SD TV). Personally I'm going to hold off on getting a 4k TV until someone can show me one that looks (almost) as good on 1080p content as my Panasonic plasma

                  This is the tech I'm looking forward to in future TVs!

                  http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...w-hdr-tv-tech/

                  The consensus from people I talked to who were at CES is that HDR color make a bigger difference in picture quality than 4k for most of the demos they saw (especially on "normal" size TVs at average viewing distances).

                  [ note these are my opinions and have nothing to do with what VUDU may be working on in the future ]
                  I will say this. I'm not sure what sorcery VUDU is using, but the SD content is generally better than DVD and looks pretty good on my 55" LED/LCD.

                  I think the reason 4k will be the next wave is because it's easy to market. With 3D, there's too many rules (wear these glasses, sit at this angle, blah, blah). With 4K, you just spout a bunch of big numbers and people go "wow"; mission accomplished. Combine this with the fact that quality OEMs will be offering sub-$2k 4k very soon, I think 4k is going to hit the mainstream pretty quick, or at least faster than it took 1080p to take off.

                  The HDR technology is interesting. Unfortunately, it sounds like something that would be expensive to implement. It may end up facing the same challenges as OLED.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: 4K Streaming

                    Originally posted by Jake View Post
                    Not only that, but 1080p content usually looks *worse* scaled up to a 4k TV (just as SD content looks worse on an HD TV than an SD TV). Personally I'm going to hold off on getting a 4k TV until someone can show me one that looks (almost) as good on 1080p content as my Panasonic plasma

                    [ note these are my opinions and have nothing to do with what VUDU may be working on in the future ]
                    Uh, what????? SD content does not look worse 'scaled up' (unless it is a really bad scaler) nor does 1080 look worse on a 4k (I've seen it). Especially the latter where there is no technical issues given the picture does not need to be modified like SD upscaling does. The perception issue of seeing SD on HD screen was simply an issue of larger screen and comparing it to HD content.
                    As for it being 'as good' as Panasonic plasma, outside of the black levels and contrast the TV is good at, I'd suggest going to your local video dealer and looking at a UHD TV and see it with native content, not just 1080. It is as stunningly different as HD was to SD back in the late 90's.

                    As to the main topic here, 4k streaming in the near future isn't interesting as we can't even get Blu-ray quality over the net yet. Once everything is re-encoded (well) with a mature h.265 encoder, it would be good to first get full 1080/blu-ray quality. Having more lines of resolution currently would simply mean other aspects of the picture would be degraded.

                    Comment

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